Vernier TV280 restauration

[cima96]

Hello everybody, recently I have bought a new old lathe saving it from scrape, more precisely it'a "Vernier TV280", made in France.
The machine didn't appear in very good conditions beacuse it had been exposed to rain for some month, but the price was so interesting (500€ including transportation), so I decided to bring it at home.
The tools included with the lathe were only the steady and follower rest and a Rapid Original A Type toolpost with 4 tool holders.
I've started disassembling some part of the "new toy" (tailstock, enclosures, chuck,....) and to clean them, there is a lot of work to do but it seems a very well made machine.
Now a series of photo:

 

[cima96]

others....

 

[matocaz]

Bonjour Cima96,
Et .
Je suis désolé ( I'm sorry ) mais je ne parle pas anglais (but I don't speak english ).
Je vous souhaite bon courage pour la rénovation de votre machine.

 

[chabercha]

Hello
Cima 96, welcome to usinages.com
4 links to documentation on the Vernier tv280
https://www.usinages.com/threads/vernier-tv280-tv330-manuel.84477/
https://www.usinages.com/threads/vernier-tv280-330-pdf.39563/
https://www.usinages.com/threads/vernier-tv280-plans.83656/
https://www.usinages.com/search/1122915/?q=vernier+tv280&t=post&o=relevance&c[node]=82
A + Bernard

I am using the translator.

 

[FB29]

Hello,

The machine didn't appear in very good conditions because it had been exposed to rain for some month, but the price was so interesting (500€ including transportation)

I guess you have made a good deal ... The exterior of the machine is a pity but the interior of the gear box looks quite nice ... the bed slides also do not exhibit evident signs of wear ... I noticed that you get a quick change toolpost as well ... this is quite useful ... looks to be the same Dickson design as mine ... The electric box needs to be reworked a little bit I'am afraid ...

I will follow carefully your restoration work !

Kind regards,

Je pense que vous avez fait une bonne affaire ... L'extérieur de la machine fait pitié mais l'intérieur de la boîte de vitesses n'a pas l'air mal ... les glissières du banc ne montrent pas non plus de signes évident d'usure ... J'ai remarqué que vous avez eu ausi une tourelle à changement rapide ... c'est plutôt pratique ... on dirait la même Dickson que la mienne ... Le coffret électrique semble avoir besoin de quelques travaux aussi j'en ai peur ...

Je vais suivre les travaux de restauration avec la plus grande attention !

Cordialement,
FB29

 

[cf63]

Good evening cima96

Congratulations for this nice purchase.
J like this machine, disign of seventie's
Good luck for dessambling operation.
Check Voltage motor before connecting to electricticy link.
J think that the electrical cabinet is obsolet..
have a nice day
cldt, cf63.

 

[cima96]

Thank you everybody for the responses and thank you chabercha for the documentation link. I have had a look to the manual and I've seen that it doesn't seem complete, it looks like a sort of "collage" of two different manuals of the same machine and unfortunately some page is lost. Is there anyone in the forum that has a manual in good conditions and that could take some photo to let me complete the book?
Yesterday I started to clean rust and sledge and to restore the guards that cover the rear part of the headstock. They're made of metal sheets and the previous owner hadn't been so delicate with them, so I'im doing a bit of hand "tinsmithing".
Then I disassembled also the motor-clutch-brake group, it had been a bit challenging because the space into the motor cabinet is not so much, but at the end I've been able to pull it out from the plinth.
I want also to ask a question to the other TV 280 owners: in my lathe there is some guard lost and I'm talking about the two doors in the pedestal (more precisely the electric cabinet and tool storage cabinet doors) and the cover of the two lever that control the spindle gearbox on the headstock (see the last photo). Is there anyone that could take some picture and measure in their lathes to permit me to build a copy of the lost parts?? Thank you.

 

[cf63]

Hello cima96

A photo of the top cover ( without dimensions)

Check the cluth brake ( minimum of magnetic gap), but also the rectifier often "pumping"
May be change the set of belts
Dont forget that this machine know only the millimeters.
ys,cf63

 

[Le Prolls]

Hello Cima96,

Sorry for my poor english , but i try....

Nice lathe you have, I hope that you have many other bottle of WD40 to clean this machine , and also many hours to spend.

This forum is getting more and more international.

Christophe(r)

 

[cima96]

@cf63
Thank you for the photo, but I need something more precise. I can imagin the shape of the top cover and some of the measures simply looking at the headstock of my lathe.
Of course I will change the belts and also all the oil seals, electric cabels, bearings (if damaged) and so on, but what do you mean when you say "Dont forget that this machine know only the millimeters."??

@Le Prolls
No problem for the language, nor mine is perfect (italian people are famous all over the world for their awful english language ), and then the WD40...........just on thursday morning I spent 15€ to buy 1L of it

 

[FB29]

Hi there,

"Dont forget that this machine know only the millimeters."??

Some of us (including me) thought you were located in the UK. Now I realize that you are living in Italy, so the marking of the control dials shouldn't be an issue for you ....

Cheers,
FB29

 

[cf63]

hello cima96

All the "verniers" (graduations) of the screws of this machine are in mm , not in inches...

It will be better is you change the " contactors" by telemecanique ( square d).
The Petercem contactors are may be oxyded and the coils unfindable.

Test the main motor before connect the power (may be humidity problems out with insulation).
J try to give you some dimensions for the top cover (one of my friend works on TV280, but could you wait a few days).

sincerly yours,cf63

 

[cima96]

I don't have 3 phase power supply, so I will realize a new electric cabinet with a single phase-three phase inverter for the main motor (of course modified with triangle wiring to be powered with 230V voltage), so I will remove the old contactors mounting just a new one for the coolant pump.
Thank you also for your helpfulness regarding the top cover.

 

[cima96]

Hello everybody, I am very slowly going on in the restoration. Now I'm focusing on all sorts of enclosures and sheetmetal parts, they're dented because of various bumps obviously caused by the previous owner, so there is some "bodywork" to do using different sizes of hammers, angle grinder, and welding machine.
Someone could say that bodywork is non the most important manteinance to do on an old lathe, but my intent is to reach the result "as new", so I prefer doing it now and try to fit together all the restored parts before painting.
Then I cleaned the coolant basin, I removed such a pan of dirt and I tried to repair the pump but it was too damaged so I throwed it away.
I also disassembled the cross and top slides, they were a bit seized because of the rust, but it doesn't seem nothing serious because on the guideways I can see the signs of scraping.
Finally the chuck, it was completely covered of rust, so I reduced it into minimal components then to clean it I used hydrochloric acid. In my opinion the result is great, the only problem is that the chuck is a precision tool, so now I have to polish the grey deposition of converted rust using a steel brush or scotch brite.
Some photo:

 

[cf63]

HELLO cima96

Comme prévu, quelques dimensions du tv280:

1/ Front panel in aluminium 2 colors Black and white
Face avant hauteur 135 mm; longueur 435 mm
axe de l'inverseur (à 100mm depuis la gauche, longueur rainure 70 mm, largeur rainure 14 mm)
rainures du sélecteur de vitesses entraxe 55 mm 4 rainures largeur 18 mm.
entraxe 55 mm à partir de 30 mm depuis la droite à l'axe; 200 mm à l'axe de la rainure de gauche.

2/Top cover (in steel may be 15/10mm)
longueur 435 mm (external dimension) hauteur 135 mm

les cotés sont en forme de trapèze: 335 mm en haut; 350 mm en bas

2.1/coté gauche:( left side of top cover)
découpe pour la broche à 240 mm (sur la base de 350 mm) depuis l’arrière Ø 50 hauteur 25 mm.
2.2/ cote droit :( right side of top cover over the chuck)
découpe pour la broche à 240 mm (sur la base de 350 mm ) depuis l’arrière Ø 150 hauteur 65 mm.


J hope that thoses informations will be understanded...
My scanner is out of order; j am sorry.
For your Ladner chuck, it possible to buy some soft jaws; this firm is again existing in France ref L20 Chuck Ø160).
Have a good time for cleanning operation.

sincerly yours, cf63

 

[cf63]

Hello cima96

Detail of left side of the top cover

Detail of the right side

good luck for the top cover realisation.

cf63.

 

[franc-x-marc]

hi

The body machine look like in bad condition , but the mecanic part look better...

Good luke for all this rust ....

it is a Good lathe !

 

[cima96]

Thank you cf63, for the cover dimensions. As soon as I have some news I have some news, I will post some photo of the rebuilt.

 

[cima96]

Hello everybody, a little news about my vernier, after 2 months of exmination period at the university, i've found one day to do something on my new old lathe and I'm talking about the toolpost restoration. It was like a pile of rust, so firstly I removed the oxide using power tools and steel brushes, then I noticed that the previous owner had some fun using the angle grinder on the tool holders (probably to mount bigger tools), so I filled various gaps with 6013 stick rods and did some filework to fix the coupling geomethry. Finally I made the adjustments nuts and I bougth some screw, and this is the result.

 

[SIDE 06]

saluti
per cortesia un piccolo "sforzo".
encora grazie per scrivere sul sito "usinages.com", ma pero ,di grazie finiamo una volte per sempre di scrivere sistematicamente in inglese ,la nostra lingua é il francese
perché non scrivi in italiano? spero ché non avrai vergogna, quando si sà ché l'italiano é una lingua famosa ,non é vero ?
Ti rispondo senza aver bisogno del taduttore GOOGLE
Accetta la mia risposta senza 'avere rimproveri
ciao e a presto
pierre ( o in italiano piero)

 

[SIDE 06]

re : encora una precisione : sono della classe 1949 é si purtroppo! o passato 19 anni come attrezzista nella "ditta VERNIER " a nizza nelle alpi marittime francesi e anche la mia origine ,
penso e sono sicuro di conoscerle abbastanza bene sia i 280 ché i 330 TV VERNIER

Vedrai ché dalla parte desta del banco c'é scritto " VERNIER LA trinité (piccolo paesino in periferia di nizza)

 

[cima96]

Salve a tutti, ho scritto fino ad ora in inglese (consapevole dei miei vari errori sintattici e grammaticali) semplicemente perchè pensavo che potesse risultare più agevole da comprendere per gli altri utenti e mi scuso fin d'ora se casomai ho contravvenuto a qualche regola sfuggitami all'epoca della mia iscrizione.
Ovviamente non ho vergogna delle mie origini ma posso capire che la mia sia una lingua parecchio ostica e se aggiungiamo che nel mondo è parlata pochissimo, beh non è difficile convenire che se c'è uno che si deve adeguare quello sono io; tuttavia devo fare appello alla vostra pazienza in quanto del francese confesso una conoscenza limitatissima appena sufficiente a carpire il senso di quel che leggo. Detto ciò quel che di più "internazionale" mi rimane è l'inglese, ma se preferite posso postare senza alcuna difficoltà in "bilingue" italiano-inglese, o anche solo in italiano, ditemi voi....

Fatte le dovute premesse ringrazio infinitamente SIDE 06 per il suo intervento: sapere che c'è qualcuno che conosce a fondo questo bel tornietto sicuramente mi potrà essere utile nel caso trovi difficoltà nei lavori di restauro.
A proposito della targhetta invece confermo, è rivettata sul banco lato controtesta e a pagina 1 c'è pure una foto.

 

[FB29]

Hello,

I bougth some screw

May I ask you where you have purchased these screws (with the square head I suppose) ?

Many thanks,

Best regards,
FB29

 

[nopxor]

Bonjour,
Pour trouver ces vis, il faut faire une recherche avec DIN 478

 

[cima96]

FB 29 I don't remember code of the relevant normative, but I got these items at the tool store and they're sold as "toolpost spare parts" and not like common hardware, so they're a bit expensive. To let you comprehend, for 5 pieces 3/8" Withworth screws with square head I paid 14,20€

 

[FB29]

Hi cima96,

I got these items at the tool store

I understand you simply got these items from your local retail shop ...

However for us in France it is an issue since I do not believe they are sold in any shop around here ... just because they are manufactured according to British gauge ... therefore we need to find a shop in the UK that can ship overseas, like Chronos or the like ... This is why I was asking the question ... What looks pretty simple for you is merely a pain in the ass for us ...

Best regards,
FB29

 

[cima96]

Hello everybody! Four years are passed since the last update on the TV280 rebuild and during this long time it has been sitting in my garage waiting for some care. Unfortunately during the past "dark" period I've had not very much free time to keep the project going on (you know....new girlfriend, studying mechanical engineering at the university, summer dayjob, ecc...), but now things are a little bit changed (not only because of COVID 19 ) and I'm intentioned to reboot the restoration.

So, here we go and let's talk about some progress: the first thing I've done after the toolpost and chuck cleaning, has been starting the top slide overhauling. I've removed all the rust and dirt from all the components and some problem has came out.
1) Someone has smashed the top slide on the two sides probably with a hammer (I hope at some point he had also seen the two nut to loose before rotating the all assembly). This could seem only a matter of bad looking but in reality I'm quite sure that also the ways have been distorced, anyway, at the moment I don't have a surface plate to check them so for now I'll leave the parts in this conditions.
2) The screw nut il pretty bad worn, so it will be the first job for the lathe as soon it will be up and running
3) The support of the top slide screw has been damaged during the dissassembly because it was literally a block of rust (lieterally all was seized up), in particular in the attempt of removing a setscrew I've ruined the threaded hole. At first I've tried to repair the stripped thread in the cast iron support installing an helicoil but the material left was pretty thin and th piece cracked during the tapping operation. At this point I decided to grind off all the damaged zone of the part to charge some new material by welding and so was done, but during the machining (I'had to rebore the bearings seat) the all piece cracked becoming definitely non salvageable.

For now some photo:



Google translate to French:
Bonjour tous le monde! Quatre ans se sont écoulés depuis la dernière mise à jour de la reconstruction du TV280 et pendant ce temps, il a été assis dans mon garage en attendant quelques soins. Malheureusement, au cours de la dernière période "sombre", je n'ai pas eu beaucoup de temps libre pour continuer le projet (vous savez ... nouvelle petite amie, étudiant en génie mécanique à l'université, job d'été, etc.), mais maintenant les choses ont un peu changé (pas seulement à cause de COVID 19: mrgreen et j'ai l'intention de redémarrer la restauration.

Alors, c'est parti et parlons de certains progrès: la première chose que j'ai faite après le nettoyage de la boîte à outils et du mandrin, a été de commencer la révision de la glissière supérieure. J'ai enlevé toute la rouille et la saleté de tous les composants et un problème est survenu.
1) Quelqu'un a cassé la glissière supérieure des deux côtés probablement avec un marteau (j'espère qu'à un moment donné, il avait également vu les deux écrous se desserrer avant de faire tourner l'ensemble). Cela peut sembler seulement une question de mauvaise apparence, mais en réalité, je suis sûr que les moyens ont également été déformés, de toute façon, pour le moment je n'ai pas de plaque de surface pour les vérifier, donc pour l'instant je laisse les pièces dans ces conditions.
2) L'écrou de vis est assez mal usé, ce sera donc le premier travail du tour dès qu'il sera opérationnel
3) Le support de la vis coulissante supérieure a été endommagé lors du démontage car il s'agissait littéralement d'un bloc de rouille (lieterally tout a été grippé), notamment dans la tentative d'enlever une vis de fixation j'ai ruiné le trou fileté. Au début, j'ai essayé de réparer le fil dénudé dans le support en fonte en installant une hélicoïdale, mais le matériau restant était assez mince et la pièce s'est fissurée pendant l'opération de taraudage. À ce stade, j'ai décidé de meuler toute la zone endommagée de la pièce pour charger un nouveau matériau par soudage et cela a été fait, mais pendant l'usinage (j'avais à refaire le siège du roulement), la pièce fissurée devenait définitivement non récupérable.



Pour l'instant quelques photos:

 

[cima96]

At this point I've decided to machine a new bearing support improving also the original design:
1) I've decided to use angular contact bearings in substitution of radial bearings
2) the new part will be made of steel (not brittle as the original cast iron)
3) in the original design the two bearings are hold axially in such an awful way and there is no protection from chips and dirt, so I'll make a fully enclosed support, not sealed but at least providing two metal shields (green parts in the 3d model)
4) the handwheel will be coupled to the screw by a square key and not through a rolled pin

Note: the two angular contact bearings will be mounted in "X" configuration and the preload will be guaranteed by the screwed cap, the same preload will be adjusted by grindig the spacer between the bearings at the moment of the assembly. I've thought for many hours if it was possible to adjust the preload in a different way but there was no space for two locknuts and I didn't want to change the diameter of the shaft (and so modify also the handwheel).

For the most interested people I attach to the message a 3D pdf of the full top slide with the improved design (in the model I've allo added oil grooves, conduits and nipples, but to relise them we will see in the future) and the drawings of the new parts.



Google translate to French:

À ce stade, j'ai décidé d'usiner un nouveau support de roulement améliorant également la conception d'origine:
1) J'ai décidé d'utiliser des roulements à contact oblique en remplacement des roulements radiaux
2) la nouvelle pièce sera en acier (pas fragile comme la fonte d'origine)
3) dans la conception d'origine, les deux roulements sont maintenus axialement d'une manière si horrible et il n'y a aucune protection contre les copeaux et la saleté, donc je ferai un support entièrement fermé, non scellé mais fournissant au moins deux écrans métalliques (pièces vertes dans le modèle 3D)
4) le volant sera couplé à la vis par une clé carrée et non par une goupille roulée

Remarque: les deux roulements à contact oblique seront montés en configuration "X" et la précharge sera garantie par le capuchon vissé, la même précharge sera ajustée en rectifiant l'entretoise entre les roulements au moment du montage. J'ai pensé pendant de nombreuses heures s'il était possible d'ajuster la précharge d'une manière différente mais il n'y avait pas de place pour deux contre-écrous et je ne voulais pas changer le diamètre de l'arbre (et donc modifier aussi le volant).

Pour les personnes les plus intéressées, j'attache au message un pdf 3D de la diapositive complète avec la conception améliorée (dans le modèle, j'ai également ajouté des rainures d'huile, des conduits et des mamelons, mais pour les relire, nous verrons à l'avenir) et les dessins des nouvelles pièces.

 

[rabotnuc]

super réparation, bravo.

 

[cima96]

So, after some day we have also some progress on the rebuild, more precisely now that the most complicated parts of the top slide are done, it's time to start with the rifinements (spacers, sleevs, pins, shims, ecc...). As usual some explanation about the single components that I have repaired/modified:

TOP SLIDE SCREW: I've decided to couple the screw and the handle not with a rolled pin as it was designer by Vernier, but using a key. To make this possible I've shortened the screw and added a threaded hole at the end that have to match with the handwheel and, after that, I've also milled a key seat.

TOP SLIDE HANDWHEEL: I've counterbored the screw coupling hole to receive a special washer. This has been necessary since I wanted the handwheel retaining screw to be flushed with the surface. Of course I'll also make a keyseat broached into te same hole as soon the quarantine will finish (unfortunately I'm not equipped to do that by myself and I don't want to waste an entire day doing this with a file).

HANDWHEEL SPECIAL WASHER: I've decided to use an M6 countersunk cap screw to retain the handwheel, so I've made a special washer for that (no photo for now, but only a drawing TS014)

HANDWHEEL HANDLE: in the original design the lathe top slide had two handles but one was missing, so I've turned a new one to make the pair

BEARING DUST SHIELDS: i wanted to keep chips and other junk out from the screw bearings in the best way I could, so in my bearing support design I've insert two shields made of 0.3 spring steel. Of course this components are not available on the market, so I've turned myself the special washer out from some spring steel sheet. This is not really difficult part to make, but the clamping system I've used is something quite unusual. In fact, as you can see from the photo, I've faced a piece of aluminium and then I've glued to it the piece of sheet metal to turn. After drilling the central hole and finishing the outside and inside diameter, I've teared down the completed part using a knife blade and then throwed it into the ultrasonic cleaner to remove glue residues. Finally I've stoned the edges to remove the burrs.

Photo time



Google translate to French:

Donc, après un certain jour, nous avons également progressé dans la reconstruction, plus précisément maintenant que les parties les plus compliquées de la glissière supérieure sont terminées, il est temps de commencer par les rifinements (entretoises, manchons, épingles, cales, etc.) . Comme d'habitude, quelques explications sur les composants simples que j'ai réparés / modifiés:

VIS DE GLISSEMENT SUPÉRIEURE: J'ai décidé de coupler la vis et la poignée non pas avec une goupille roulée car elle a été conçue par Vernier, mais en utilisant une clé. Pour rendre cela possible, j'ai raccourci la vis et ajouté un trou fileté à la fin qui doit correspondre avec le volant et, après cela, j'ai également fraisé un siège de clé.

VOLANT DE GLISSIÈRE SUPÉRIEURE: J'ai percé le trou de couplage à vis pour recevoir une rondelle spéciale. Cela était nécessaire car je voulais que la vis de retenue du volant soit rincée avec la surface. Bien sûr, je ferai également un siège de clé abordé dans le même trou dès que la quarantaine sera terminée (malheureusement, je ne suis pas équipé pour le faire moi-même et je ne veux pas perdre une journée entière à le faire avec un fichier).

RONDELLE SPÉCIALE DE VOLANT: J'ai décidé d'utiliser une vis à tête fraisée M6 pour retenir le volant, j'ai donc fait une rondelle spéciale pour cela (pas de photo pour l'instant, mais seulement un dessin TS014)

POIGNÉE DE VOLANT: dans la conception originale, la glissière supérieure du tour avait deux poignées mais une manquait, j'ai donc tourné une nouvelle pour faire la paire

ROULEMENTS DE PROTECTION CONTRE LES POUSSIÈRES: je voulais garder les copeaux et autres déchets indésirables des roulements à vis de la meilleure façon possible, donc dans ma conception de support de roulement, j'ai inséré deux boucliers en acier à ressort de 0,3. Bien sûr, ces composants ne sont pas disponibles sur le marché, j'ai donc moi-même transformé la rondelle spéciale en tôle d'acier à ressort. Ce n'est pas une partie vraiment difficile à réaliser, mais le système de serrage que j'ai utilisé est quelque chose d'assez inhabituel. En fait, comme vous pouvez le voir sur la photo, j'ai fait face à un morceau d'aluminium puis j'ai collé dessus le morceau de tôle à tourner. Après avoir percé le trou central et terminé le diamètre extérieur et intérieur, j'ai démonté la pièce terminée à l'aide d'une lame de couteau, puis je l'ai jetée dans le nettoyeur à ultrasons pour éliminer les résidus de colle. Enfin, j'ai lapidé les bords pour éliminer les bavures.

Temps de photo